It isn't every week that a Diamond League meet is outclassed by a group of teenagers!
But the Stockholm DL was one of the worst--ever!
Even so, what a large group of HS age kids did this past week to the Record Book was beyond impressive--it was Olympian!
And Sydney McLaughlin's SMASHING of the HSR in the 400H by 0.74 seconds at the New Balance National Championships was indeed Olympian!!
She had a clear lead before the halfway point, cleared every hurdle cleanly, and sprinted to the tape in just 54.46 seconds!
This ended the 32 year reign of Leslie Maxie as the HSR holder, AND as the Junior Class Record holder!!
She also gets the NBN Meet Record, breaking her own mark!
She moves from 2nd A-T HS to 1st.
While she misses my US DDD by 0.14 seconds (as someone who won't turn 17 until August 7th!!), she would rank 10th A-T Collegiate....if she were in College, that is!!
A definite Olympic team......and Medal!!....threat!!
In 2nd....in a PR by 0.39 seconds....was Anna Cockrell, her 56.28 "slow" ONLY in the shadow of someone like McLaughlin!
Cockrell remains 5th A-T HS!
Did I forget to mention that McLaughlin anchored her Union Catholic team's Swedish Relay (100, 200, 300, 400) to a 2:07.99 time with her 50.92 split?
That's reportedly the fastest FAT'ed 400 split ever!!
Lashinda Demus ran 50.4 hand-timed!!
The NBN saw 10 MR's broken, 7 for the Women, and 3 for the Men.
But it was the Adidas Boost meet---sort of a domestic replacement for the Adidas NY DL--that produced the biggest teen shock of the week, outside of McLaughlin's run.
Kate Murphy, who showed her real ability in her anchor leg of her team's DMR at the NBIN this year, destroyed her PR in the 1500, winning the Adidas meet's HS 1500 in a stunning 4:07.21.
And she did it by sprinting her last lap in 62.05!!
She moves from 7th to 3rd on the A-T HS list!!
And the group of teens she beat showed what incredible depth there is in the HS middle distance ranks!!
Katie Rainsberger ran 4:14.12, a non-PR!
Her final lap was 68.19, so most of the 7 second gap came in that final go-round!
Ella Donaghu was next in 4:18.07.
Then came Nevada Mareno's 4:18.48, which makes her 18th A-T HS!
Caitlin Collier, a virtual unknown, ran 4:19.05, making her 22nd A-T HS
BTW, if this had been a Mile (See my previous post about THAT!!), Murphy would have run a HSR by at least 11 seconds, and possibly 12!!
Her time equates to about 4:23, given a 16 second final 109 meters!!
And with that 62 second final 400.....just saying!
Also, this was faster than the Pro race!!
Cory McGee won that in 4:08.65, with Mary Cain showing a bit of improvement with her 3rd place time of 4:10.84.
This meet also saw the first 2 American Women's sub-2's of the year in the 800.
Ajee Wilson's 1:59.72 edged Molly Ludlow's 1:59.93!
Heather Kampf impressed in 3rd with her 2:00.55, while Morgan Uceny showed some old speed with her 2:02.00 in 7th.
Treniere Moser also showed she's ready for the Trials with her 2:01.94, just ahead of Uceny!
Wayde Van Niekerk ran a strong 400, his 44.28 beating Michael Cedeno's 44.87 and David Verburg's 44.98.
In a 3-runner race (!!), Dejen Gebremeskel dipped under 13 in the 5000, his 12:59.89 beating Hagos Gebrhiwet's 13:00.20.
Fran McCorory showed some oompf with her 400 win in 50.46.
Ben True had a great kick in the 1500, but his 3:36.05 PR couldn't catch Collins Cheboi's 3:35.82, or Nick Willis's 3:35.95.
Meseret Defar easily took the Women's 5000, her 15:06.96 beating Marielle Hall's 15:13.66.
Abbey D'Agostino Q'ed for the Trials with her 15:22.29.
Jo Pavey wanted a Q for the British team, but fell 0.74 short with her 15:24.74 at Age 42!
In the Men's HS Mile (Again, see my rant about the guys getting to run the Mile, while the Women were given the 1500!!), Jack Salisbury's 57.64 last lap gave him a 4:04.20, enough to edge Thomas Ratcliffe's 4:04.41.
Other than McLaughlin, maybe the most impressive "woman" at the NBN was 12 year old (I said TWELVE year old!!) Grace Ping.
In the 5000 race, Weini Kelati had her usual suicidal start, passing 2000 in about 6:10.
More than 10 seconds back, Ping led the chase pack.
Then, after another lap or two, Ping decided to go for it.
Gaining a second or more each lap, she ultimately faded a bit, but still ran a phenomenal--and World Age 12 Record time!!--of 16:44.80!!
(Kelati won in 16:24.69, but her time doesn't count for HS records or lists!)
The only other comparable time to Ping's is the INdoor 7th Grade record of Brianna Jackucewicz, who ran 16:43.02 on a 200 meter track back in 2004.
But Ping wasn't done!
The next day, she ran the Two Mile in 10:28.66, which MUST be a record for a 12 year old, though I don't have factual proof of that!
Jackucewicz apparently never improved her time, and in fact may have never even RACED again(!!), so hopefully, Grace Ping will keep going, and keep improving at a normal rate!
That 2 Mile race was a doozy!!
Kelati again ran like a Mad Dog, but this time, she had a brave Nevada Mareno, sticking to her like wet gum to a shoe!!
They were side by side, with the much older Kelati staying JUST ahead of the charging Mareno.
In the end, Kelati prevailed--by 0.06 seconds!
Moreno's 10:00.44 is the Junior Class record!
She becomes 5th A-T HS!
Abby Wheeler also ran good, her 10:08.64 making her 15th A-T HS.
Moreno also took 3rd in the Mile, her 4:43.29 losing to Micaila DeGenero's 4:42.22 and Maegan Doody's 4:42.45.
DeGenero misses my HS DDD by 0.91 seconds.
The 100H continued its 2016 record onslaught at NBN!
In the heats, Tia Jones ran a Frosh Class record of 13.14!
It was also a Meet Record!
I should note here that Jones's 13.03 from earlier in the year was WINDY!!
It had initially been reported as legal, but the newest T&FN list has it in the wind-aided column!!
Chanel Brissett ramped it up quite a bit, her 13.01 winner (0.7 wind) breaking Jones's Meet Record in the process.
She moves from 10th A-T HS to 3rd!
Brandee Johnson's 13.08 moves her from 9th A-T HS, tied with 1 other, to 6th!
And Jones again ran 13.14 in the final, tying her Frosh Class record!
However, because of the improvements from the top two, she actually moves DOWN on my list, from 5th A-T HS to 7th!!
Anna Cockrell also ran this hurdle race, her 13.17 moving her from 12th A-T HS, tied with 2 others, to 9th, tied with 1 other!
She had tied her PR of 13.21 in her heat!
Tonea Marshall, who twice broke the INdoor 60H HSR this past winter, could run "just" 13.30, not a PR!
Although she ran 13.21 in her heat race!
Two NBN Men's field events had drastically different outcomes!
The much-ballyhooed "showdown" between HS's two 18 footers this season, FIZZLED!!!
Starting at 17-0.75, Mondo Duplantis No-Heighted!!
But HSR holder Chris Nilsen wasn't much better, reaching just 16-8.25!!
Nilsen said the winds were bad for vaulting!
Carson Dingler added a quarter inch to her PR, her 13-8.50 winner setting an NBN Meet Record!
She missed her 3 attempts at 14-0!
But the Men's SP was solid!
Jordan Geist, the Junior Class Record holder at over 74 feet, could reach "only" 73-2.75 here.
This proved not enough, as Adrian (Tripp) Piperi exploded out to a PR of 73-5.25, setting an NBN Meet Record!!
Bronson Osborn wasn't exactly a dead fish, as his 71-2.50 took 3rd!!
Alyssa Wilson added to her Junior Class record in the SP, her 55-9.25 less than a foot removed from the HSR of Raven Saunders!!
She of course remains 2nd A-T HS!!
The Men's 4XMile HSR was FINALLY broken....after 40 years!!
(See my previous posts!!)
And it wasn't easy for the winner, the Ogden (UT) TC!
They had to contend with the Mile powerhouse, Great Oak of CA, aka South Temecula TC!
The final Mile (NOT 1600!!) was a slugfest, with Ogden just nipping Great Oak, 17:04.55 to 17:04.61 in a dead-out sprint down the final straight!!
It's of course the NBN Meet Record!!
The Great Oak (South Temecula!!) Women's DMR also had a real RACE on their hands!
Their main competition was the North Rockland TC of NY
The anchors were 8th Grader (!!) Katelyn Tuohy and Senior Destiny Collins.
Tuohy started with a 5 second lead.
But Collins, in her final G-O race--and after a 10:22 in the 2 Mile (where she faded after a fast first mile!)---pushed herself to within inches of Tuohy, only to fall short at the end!
North Rockland beat Great Oak, 11:29.39 to 11:29.76, the 4th & 5th fastest teams in history!!
Tuohy ran her leg in 4:45, while Collins did 4:40!!
Still, this and the 4XMile were two fantastic competitions!
In the Women's 4X200 Relay, another MR was set.
War TC of Virginia became the 3rd best School in history with their 1:34.23.
War also got another MR---or TWO of them!!
In the 4X100, they first set the MR in their heat, running 45.09.
They then nipped their own record in the final, doing 45.08!!
Tyrese Cooper yet again broke a Frosh Class record!!
He beat his own mark in the 400 with his 45.69!
This finally moves him onto the Top 24 A-T Performers list....at 24th place!
He also ran the 200 in a non-PR of 20.90!
Katelin Gochenour broke the Meet Record in the Javelin, her 171-1 beating comebacking HSR holder Madison Wiltrout's 155-10.
Gochenour moves from 13th A-T HS, tied with 2 others, to 11th.
Taylor DeLoach LJ'ed 20-10.50, making her 23rd A-T HS.
Lauren Harris, who broke the INdoor Mile Walk HSR with her 6:57 this past winter, did it again!!
She knocked off the HSR here too, her 6:52.23 solo effort making Maria Michta-Coffey start looking over her shoulder!
The Multi's saw Meet Records broken too!
The Decathlon was won by the 6933 points of Hayden Ashley!
Emma Fitzgerald took the Heptathlon with 5464 points.
It makes her 6th A-T HS!
Other good NBN marks included....
Lauryn Ghee's 200 of 22.97 in her heat race!
She's now 20th A-T HS, tied with 1 other.
OFF my DDD list fell Angela Williams, her 23.02 dating from 1998!!
Liam Christensen threw the Javelin 232-1 for 8th A-T HS!!
Infinite Tucker won the 400H---male version!!---with a 50.70.
It misses my DDD by just 0.09 seconds!!
Canadian Victoria Tachinski must have impressed her home nation by winning the 800 in 2:03.72!!
First US finisher was Sage Hurta in 2:06.37.
Third in the race was Presley Weems's 2:06.87.
The Men's 800 saw 2 breaking 1:50, led by Frank Hayes in 1:49.36, and Cameron Cooper's 1:49.71.
Isaac Cortes, Brandon McGorty, and Nelson Quintana all ran faster than 1:50.7!
Another young YOUNG one to impress was 8th Grade 2000SC'er Mary Hennelly, her non-PR of 6:52.15 taking 2nd to Megan Reilly's 6:46.01.
Eion Nohilly took the Men's 2K Steeple in 5:55.40, beating Nicholas Steele's 5:55.80.
And Kaylor Harris won the Women's 100 in 11.34.
The Brooks PR is mainly a HS-oriented meet, but had some Pro races too.
Phoebe Wright WON her first 800 in years, her 2:02.35 outkicking McKayla Fricker's 2:02.47.
Annie Hill took the HS Mile in 4:41.52.
She misses my HS list by 0.21 seconds!
But the best race (in an otherwise weak meet, comparatively speaking!) was the HS Two Mile!
Again, a Canadian girl won, Shona McCullouch overcoming Fiona O'Keefe's front running (all the way!) with her 9:59.87!!
O'Keefe faded to 10:05.63, but she moves from 22nd A-T HS all the way to 12th!!
This was another deep race, as the next 3 places made my list!
Brie Oakley's 10:08.89 makes her 17th A-T HS.
Rebecca Story is now 22nd A-T HS, with her time of 10:11.24.
And Molly Born's 10:11.36 makes her the DDD's caboose, or 24th A-T HS!
At the Adidas meet, Jenn Suhr didn't start, out of precaution, I'm told!
The PV was won by Katie Nageotte's 14-9.
At a Last Chance meet, Kristen Hixson PR'ed at 15-3 in the PV!
She's now 8th A-T US, tied with 1 other.
Kylie Hutson also reached 15-3, but it's not a PR.
Kristen Brown got over 14-7.25.
In a separate flight, HS'er Rachel Baxter cleared 13-9.25.
Some other good marks....from various venues....and some of them older marks....
Felicia Johnson SP'ed 63-2.25, moving her from 9th A-T US to 8th.
Melissa Bishop twice ran sub-1:59's in 800's, her Jerome Classic time of 1:58.79 beating Brenda Martinez's 1:59.89, her first sub-2:00 of the year!
Anita Wlodarczyk Hammered out a 261.2, while Polish compatriot Pawel Fajdek reached 262-9.
At Princeton, Ashley Higginson missed her 2014 3000SC PR by 0.18 seconds with a fast 9:29.77.
Bronxville HS's (See my old post about that famous HS!!) Kaitlin Ryan ran 800 in 2:06.65!
Also from that Princeton meet, Duane Solomon won his 800 in 1:46.71.
Colby Alexander took the 1500 in 3:36.26.
Andrea Geubelle continued her good 2016 by TJ'ing an OUTdoor PR of 46-5.25.
She moves from 19th to 10th on the A-T US list!!
Ryan Crouser had a great series of 70+ SP's, his farthest ending at 71-8.25.
He's now 15th A-T US!!
HS'er Eion Nohilly (See above!) ran the 3000SC in his NY state meet, his 9:06.36 making him 13th A-T HS.
Right behind him came Noah Affolder, his 9:06.52 making him 15th A-T HS.
But the best came from Noah's Freshman Class brother!
Sam Affolder SHATTERED the Frosh Class record with his 9:16.43!!
The previous record was 9:38....by Sam Affolder!!
Remember my report on the Torpy brothers and their fast 800's?
Well, they also ran good 1600's----back on June 3rd---Sean's 4:03.42 beating Chris's 4:05.40---although they finished just 4th & 5th in that race.
A woman with the last name of Seymour set the Bahamas National Record in the 100H with her 12.86.
I'll try to find her first name!
Turkey produced 3 National Records recently!
Jak Ali Harvey's 9.92 in the 100, Turkey's 4X100 Relay team's 38.31, and their 4X400 Relay team's 3:02.22 being the trio.
The 4X100 time of 38.31 makes them 20th A-T Nation, tied with 1 other!
India also got their 4X400 NR with 3:02.17!
Oh, and that piddly old DL in Stockholm??
NONE of the events produced much, Record Book-worthy!
Ruth Jebet did break the Stockholm Meet Record in the 3000SC, her 9:08.37 the winner.
Genevieve LaCaze cut 7 seconds from her PR with her 9:23.19, even though she was temporarily DQ'ed for a supposed curb infraction!
Stephanie Garcia ran her first steeple of 2016--a 9:35.89 in 9th!
Kendra Harrison was slowed by the lousy weather, but her 12.66 in the 100H beat Nia Ali's 12.85 and Queen Harrison's 12.87.
Back in 5th came Swedish veteran (and 60H INdoor WR holder!!) Susannah Kallur's 13.00.
This was her first race since.....2010!!!
Ibrahim Jeilan took the 5000 in 13:03.22 from Yomif Kejelcha's 13:03.66.
Sandra Perkovic lobbed her plate out 224-2...something she does while getting her hair spiked!!
Dina Asher-Smith won her first DL race, her 200 of 22.72 beating Simone Facey's 22.81.
Ivana Spanovic's 2nd round LJ of 22-7.75 beat Brittney Reese's opening round 22-7.
Tom Walsh probably drank a few shots while winning the Shot Put with 69-4.
Ruth Beitia won her event with a HJ of 6-4, while Renaud Lavillenie napped through his PV win of 18-9.50.
Angelika Cichocka was seen texting her friends during her 1500 cruise of 4:03.25.
She beat Meraf Bahta, Gudef Tsegay, and Laura Muir by 1 or 2 seconds.
Ferguson Rotich beat Daniel Rudisha---among others---with his 800 time of 1:45.07.
Novlene Williams-Mills rubber-stamped her 400 win of 52.29, as did Ihab Abdelrahman in the JT with his 282-2.
Christian Taylor TJ'ed his longest of 2016---an okay 57-8.50!
Finally, I would be remiss if I didn't report that, at the very beginning of the 4-day Russian Championships, starting today, one Miss Yelena Isinbayeva reached 14-9 in her first PV in about 3 years!!
This was just in the Qualifying round, I believe!!
(Both Jenn Suhr and Sandi Morris have gone on record, along with Suhr's husband Rick, saying they WANT Isi to be allowed to Vault in Rio, as they want to win, but against the very BEST.
And Isinbayeva IS just that!!
See you soon, with my USATF Junior Championships Preview!
That's the US Trials for the WJC!!
To be followed a few days later by my Olympic Trials Previews!!
AaronK: "BTW, if this had been a Mile (See my previous post about THAT!!), Murphy would have run a HSR by at least 11 seconds, and possibly 12!!
ReplyDeleteHer time equates to about 4:23, given a 16 second final 109 meters!!"
First of all, congratulations to Kate Murphy for a fantastic run. However, your "mile equivalent" is way off. To simply project how fast the athlete could have run the "extra distance" fails to take reality into account. If the race had been at one mile, Kate would NOT have been at 4:07.21 at the 1500 meter mark. She would have been several seconds slower because she would have been approximately 100 meters less into her kick. That makes a BIG difference. Also, the mile is longer and in track and field, longer means slower. For these distances, the difference is not great, but it is a very real difference nonetheless.
That's why the standard factor of 1.08 works quite well. It's much more accurate than your projections because it takes the relevant factors into account. Using 1.08, Ms. Murphy's fast 1500m is approximately equivalent to a 4:27 mile -- still a big national record, but not anywhere near 4:23 (which is extremely unrealistic).
Here's an exchange that took place on the T&FN message board in 2007 between Kurt Francis and gh that clarifies the issue:
Kurt: There is NO WAY to accurately convert the time as an athlete would start their kick sooner for the finish in a 1500m.
Why do you people persist in fooling yourselves that times can be converted?
gh: This is a common misconception: that the conversion has anything to do w/ the finish of the race. It does not.
The people who came up w/ the 1.08 conversion (which predates me) did it by looking at decades of WRs in the 1500 and mile at a time when far more the latter were run and it was a reasonable expectation that the top people would be doing both (which the stars of late have not).
I gather if you plot those, you find a delightful correlation of 1.08 that runs in a pretty straight line. Straight enough for guvmint work!
So the intent of "converting" these marks is to show what runner X, in the shape he was in, would have run had he been in just the 1500. The "extra" distance is, if you will, added onto the front of the hypothetical 1500 and becomes simple pacework, with some small amount of fatigue thrown. At race's end comes the kick part; same no matter if it's the 1500 or mile.
It's clearly "voodoo science" but it's voodoo--evidenced by the immnese interest in the topic--that is of great import and its worthwhile to have a usable formula to answer the question.
Marco: It's only an approximation, and it's an "equivalence" not a "conversion". But it's interesting and useful. The 1.08 factor is time-tested and about as reliable as you can get for an approximation.
As you probably expected, I completely REJECT the conversion thesis!!
ReplyDeleteBut I'll play along...just a little.
Let's say Murphy is racing the Mile at Adidas Boost.
She WANTS that OT standard of 4:09.50 for 1500, so she runs the EXACT SAME time....with EXACTLY THE SAME kick starting point as she did there, resulting in a 62.05 for her final 400 between the 1100 and 1500 meter points of the race!
Okay?
With mission accomplished, she now turns her mind to COMPLETING the MILE!!
She keeps going...maybe now struggling...but keeps going as fast as her VERY TIRED legs can carry her!
She ALSO wants a VERY fast time in the MILE, sort of as icing on the cake!
So she doubles down, arms pumping, mind zeroed in on the NEW finish line just 109 meters from her OLD finish line.
It seems like eternity, but when she's done, and she sees she's run 4:24 or faster, she's breathless, but amazed!
How the fuck did I do THAT??
(Maybe she doesn't say "fuck", seeing as how she seems to be a nice lady and all! LOL)
But she DID it!!
She ran a "normal" 109 meter split of 17 seconds (or less!) for that kind of 1500 time, coming off a dead-out sprint to the 1500 finish line!
Momentum alone would carry her the first 30 or 40 meters, and the rest would come from motivation and determination, two qualities she seemingly has TONS of!!
Case closed!!
BTW, even if she DID fade....BADLY....over those last 109 meters, to, say, a jog of 20 seconds for those 109 meters (about 74 or 75 second 400 pace)...she still would have crushed the Mile HSR by more than 8 seconds!!
ReplyDeleteYou're way off. You're rejecting an intelligent, but approximate, conversion and asserting a completely unrealistic one. If Ms. Murphy had actually reached 1500m in 4:09.5, as you suggest, she might not be able to finish a mile at more than a jog. But 4:09.5 is still likely to be faster than she would have been at 1500m if the race was a mile distance. But maybe not way off. 4:11 plus 16 seconds gives her a 4:27 mile, which is approximately the equivalent of her 1500m time. At the end of her 4:07.21, she must have been totally spent -- might not have even been on her feet to make a mile.
ReplyDeleteTrying to tack a time for 109 meters on the END of the race will always produce extremely WRONG equivalences. You would be better (if you could determine it) to take the SLOWEST 109 meters of her race, add that amount of time plus a second or two more (for the fact that a mile is LONGER than 1500 meters, and therefore overall slower).
Herb Eliot's fastest mile was 3:54.5, a WR. His 1500m best was 3:36, also a WR. He ran lots at both distances, probably more at a mile. That's a difference of 18.5 seconds. And you think Kate Murphy's differential is only 16 seconds in a race MORE THAN HALF A MINUTE SLOWER??? Makes no sense. (I think Eliot's 1500m is probably intrinsically faster than his mile time -- probably the equivalent of about a 3:53 mile. This is a differential of only 17 seconds, which is about right for this pace. At Murphy's speed, 20 seconds is more reasonable.)
Your thinking about this, and your calculations, are unreasonable and wrong. I wish you could re-think this and stop making unnecessary errors! Trying to quantify factors like "determination" is a dead end. Case closed!
What's the difference between Mary Cain's fastest 1500m in 2013 compared to her fastest mile in 2013? Only 16 seconds difference? WRONG!! Much more than that.
ReplyDeleteSorry for going on about this, but you've pushed some buttons!
ReplyDeleteTwo examples.
In an old post---I think from an INdoor meet---I gave the 109 meter times for all the runners.
They ranged from the low to mid-16's to slower than 19 seconds!
How, my friend, does that 1.08 conversion factor compute THAT??
Second example comes from the Boston race where Cain won in 4:24.11.
If you remember, at 1500, Hasay was over a second ahead of D'Agostino at 1500, 4:08.66 to Abbey's 4:09.77.
But Abbey BEAT Jordan to the tape...4:28.31 to 4:28.77.
She obviously handled those final 109 meters MUCH better than Hasay did!
Again, that conversion factor goes out the window!
"BTW, even if she DID fade....BADLY....over those last 109 meters, to, say, a jog of 20 seconds for those 109 meters (about 74 or 75 second 400 pace)...she still would have crushed the Mile HSR by more than 8 seconds!!"
ReplyDeleteEXTREMELY unlikely that she could have gone on for another 109 meters in only 20 seconds. That would have given her the 4:27 mile, which is a good equivalent. But it would have been the wrong way to do it. If she had suddenly been told at the end of the race that she had another 109 meters to go, it probably would have been more like 30 seconds. The smart way for her to run 4:27 would be about 4:11 plus 16 seconds, or something around that.
The final 109 meters is the WRONG way to look at it, and you'll never come close to a reasonable equivalent as long as you insist on looking at it that way. The factor that you miss is that if the race is at a mile, the runner would be much slower at 1500m than if the race is 1500m. They would be 109 meters less into their kick! Again, if you want to just "add" a time for an additional 109m, take the SLOWEST 109 meters of the 1500m race, and then add another second or two for the longer distance. That would be closer than what you're trying to do. But you'd be much better off to just use the 1.08, recognize that it's just an approximation, but a time-tested one that produces pretty good equivalences. You're technique of asserting that Kate Murphy is a MUCH faster finisher than Herb Eliot, and while he has only an 18.5 second differential, she can do it in only 16 seconds! (Again, I think we can allow Herb a 17 second differential because his 1500m is an intrinsically better time than his mile time.) 20 seconds is a good differential for a race at Kate Murphy's pace. Genzebe's 1500m WR is probably the equivalent of about a 4:08 or 4:09 mile.
ReplyDelete"In an old post---I think from an INdoor meet---I gave the 109 meter times for all the runners.
ReplyDeleteThey ranged from the low to mid-16's to slower than 19 seconds!
How, my friend, does that 1.08 conversion factor compute THAT??
Second example comes from the Boston race where Cain won in 4:24.11.
If you remember, at 1500, Hasay was over a second ahead of D'Agostino at 1500, 4:08.66 to Abbey's 4:09.77.
But Abbey BEAT Jordan to the tape...4:28.31 to 4:28.77.
She obviously handled those final 109 meters MUCH better than Hasay did!"
You're still missing the whole point. It's not about the "last 109 meters", it's about the difference between running a race at 1500m and running a race at 1 mile, as I've tried to explain (and as gh explained). And your examples are bad anyway, because they show 19-20 seconds to go from 1500m to a mile, and yet you think Kate Murphy could have done it in 16 seconds when she was already completely spent at the end of a very fast (for HS) 1500m? It doesn't make any sense.
Oops...Hasay's time was 4:28.37, not 4:28.77!
ReplyDeleteCain's 4:24.11 had her finish in just 17.6 or so.
Lots of reasons for that.
The first 800 was 2:10, maybe too fast for her.
She'd used up whatever "extra" energy she had.
But Murphy was speeding up towards the end of her 4:07.
She didn't appear spent at all.
As I said, momentum alone probably carried her 30 meters past that point.
IF she wasn't totally spent, I just don't see how an extra 79 meters (past the point of her momentum stopping) could totally stop her!
Amazing things happen from people's spirit.
In my fastest marathon....when my training was predicting a time about 15-20 minutes slower!!.....I was clipping off 6:40 miles through 25.
Then we came to a bridge....a short one, but with a "steep" incline.
I practically STOPPED!!
I fell off to 8:00 pace for the next 1000 meters or so!
I just couldn't urge my legs to go faster.
But I wanted to run sub-3:00!!
So from SOMEwhere----don't ask me where!!---I FOUND that extra burst of energy....after 25.6 or so miles of hard running....and ended by sprinting...yes, SPRINTING that final 800 or so!!
My guess is, I ran that final 800 at 6:00 mile pace!!
Based on Murphy's form at the end, she appeared ready to continue her sprint another 109 meters!!
"If you remember, at 1500, Hasay was over a second ahead of D'Agostino at 1500, 4:08.66 to Abbey's 4:09.77.
ReplyDeleteBut Abbey BEAT Jordan to the tape...4:28.31 to 4:28.77."
Interstingly, if you calculate the difference between 1500m and one mile for Hasay's times quoted by you, the factor is 1.08. For D'Agostino it is 1.04.
However this is still the WRONG way to look at it. The 1.08 factor is NOT about comparing a finished mile time to the 1500m time EN ROUTE. That's a totally different issue than the one we're discussing. If the race between Hasay and d'Agostino was at 1500m instead of a mile, they both would have been significantly faster at 1500m due to having started their kick much earlier, and not having to run a full mile.
It is important NOT to conflate 1500m EN ROUTE times in a mile race, with projecting an "equivalent" time for a mile in a 1500m race. These are two completely different circumstances and very different issues.
Look at video of Genzebe's 3:50.
ReplyDeleteDid she appear wiped out at the end??
She was jumping for joy, RAN (not jogged!!) into the arms of Price, her pacer, seconds after finishing!
Then she ran her victory lap!
I didn't see her crashing to the track, needing an oxygen fix!!
Actually, after today's revelation about her coach having 60 used syringes and tons of PED's in his hotel room, maybe using Genzebe's WR was a bad example!!
ReplyDeleteLOL
My apologies, but I don't care for this kind of exchange. When I started it I didn't expect it to go in the direction that is has. Perhaps I should have known better.
ReplyDeleteI have often expressed appreciation for your blog, and I continue to do so. But I need to avoid this type of dialog.
I'll continue to read your blog and appreciate it very much, but I will not comment any more. So just because you will no longer see comments from me, don't imagine that I've disappeared. I've just gone quiet. Thank you for understanding.
Sad, but reluctantly accepting & understanding.
ReplyDeleteI'm like you in some ways----unwilling to accept that I could be wrong!
I get that way almost every day on the T&FN MB!
But I am happy to know you're still "there", reading my bullshit!!
LOL
Some quoting here:
ReplyDeletehttps://social.throwholics.com/thread/5134-gwen-berry-usa-news/
Thanks for letting me know!
DeleteThat's the first time----that I know of!----that this blog has been quoted from.....or even referred to!!!
After 275 posts in about 30 months, it's about time!!
I LOVE doing this, but it's nice to know someone out there READS this, and appreciates it!
AND believes I KNOW something about T&F!!
LOL